Talk:Jude, brother of Jesus

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Proper referencing of statements

This quote from the article "The Epistle of Jude has also been attributed to him, (Jude 1:1) as has the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, although the latter at least is though to be a pseudepigrapha" needs to be referenced! Who thought the Gospel of Thomas to be pseudepigrapha, and for what reason? This needs expanding and referencing to pass peer review195.74.134.225 14:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Pharisee.[reply]

Catholic view

It should be referenced that the Catholics believe that the so called brothers of Jesus were actually cousins, since in those days cousins were also referenced as brothers, and that Mary was always a virgin. Is there anyone who could correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.76.34.22 (talk) 17:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is a view held by the Roman Catholics. However, during the time I was going for my MDiv, when I asked one of my instructors about the brother vs. cosin issue, he informed me that there are documents right in the archives of the Vatican that are interviews with Mary, and the "Brothers & sisters", not cousins, of Jesus. R3hall (talk) 19:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)R3hall[reply]

The claim that “brother” (a·del·phos′) here means “cousin” (a·ne·psi·os′) is a theoretical contention, the invention of which is credited to Jerome, and dates back no earlier than 383 C.E.--Standforder (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not only does Jerome fail to cite any support for his newborn hypothesis but in later writings he wavers in his opinions and even expresses misgivings about his “cousin theory.” J. B. Lightfoot states that “St Jerome pleaded no traditional authority for his theory, and that therefore the evidence in its favour is to be sought in Scripture alone. I have examined the scriptural evidence, and the . . . combination of difficulties . . . more than counterbalances these secondary arguments in its favour, and in fact must lead to its rejection.”—St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, London, 1874, p. 258.--Standforder (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

“Mark the cousin [a·ne·psi·os′] of Barnabas.” (Ac 23:16; Col 4:10) In Luke 21:16, the Greek words syg·ge·non′ (relatives, such as cousins) and a·del·phon′ (brothers) both occur, showing that the terms are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the Greek Scriptures.--Standforder (talk) 23:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew 1:25; notice the word until, indicates Mary did not remain a virgin her whole life.

Some haved to tried to argue their way out of that truth. Thought the gospels several times point fact. However scholars have noted two things about the theories, that Mary borne no other children: One there is a motivate behind such theories, to uphold a doctrine that arouse much later; the church teaching that Mary remained a virigin throught her life. Two, the theories themselves do not hold up to under scrutiny for example, one such theory suggests that the brothers in question were step brothers, sons of Joseph by a earlier marriage. This notion lacks substance for it would it would actually deny Jesus the legal right of inherit the kingship of David, another theory is, that were actually cousins of Jesus although the Greek scriptures use distinct words for brother, cousin, and relative. Thus scholar Frank E. Gableline calls these theological theories far fetched he concludes the most natural way to understand brother is that term refers to sons of Mary and Joseph they were brothers of Jesus on his mother’s side.

Matt. 13:53-56, Jerusalem Bible: “When Jesus had finished these parables he left the district; and, coming to his home town, he taught the people in their synagogue in such a way that they were astonished and said, ‘Where did the man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? This is the carpenter’s son, surely? Is not his mother the woman called Mary, and his brothers [Greek, a•del•phoi´] James and Joseph and Simon and Jude? His sisters [Greek, a•del•phai´], too, are they not all here with us?’” (On the basis of this text, would you conclude that Jesus was Mary’s only child or that she had other sons as well as daughters?)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) admits regarding the Greek words a•del•phoi´ and a•del•phai´, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these “have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense. Toward the end of the 4th century (c. 380) Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church’s traditional faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius (A.D. 383) in which he developed an explanation . . . that is still in vogue among Catholic scholars.” Mark 3:31-35, JB: “His mother and brothers now arrived and, standing outside, sent in a message asking for him. A crowd was sitting round him at the time the message was passed to him, ‘Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you’. He replied, ‘Who are my mother and my brothers?’ And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person is my brother and sister and mother.’” (Here a clear distinction is drawn between Jesus’ natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples. No one claims that the reference to Jesus’ mother means anything different from what it says. Is it consistent, then, to reason that his natural brothers were not that but were perhaps cousins? When what is meant is not brothers but relatives, a different Greek word [syg•ge•non´] is used, as at Luke 21:16.)--Standforder (talk) 23:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article should reflect this controversy instead of taking sides. It should make light of where is the word "brother" used, its possible meanings and the stand of the church. The Catholic Church considers Jesus to have been a single child. Technically John was his brother, since Jesus told him to protect Mary as his mother.--208.120.204.103 (talk) 03:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, can we please make it clear that Jude as well as the other names mentioned in Matthew 6:3 being "brothers" of Jesus is not a universally factual statement? The title and opening lines of this page seem to indicate that these men being brothers of Jesus are facts set in stone when in reality this is clearly not the case and, at the very least, is disputed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.12.194.190 (talk) 20:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Bauckham, etc.

Someone had turned this article into a gospel for a theory/book by Richard Bauckham. Most of the ideas are unusual and had little to do with Jude. I turned the article back into an article about Jude. From this page I am guessing that it was Stanforder who has some interesting anti-Catholic views in the section above this one titled Catholic views. Qowieury (talk) 07:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved as clear consensus has been established. (non-admin closure) — Music1201 ^talk 17:32, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jude (brother of Jesus) → Jude, brother of Jesus – Per WP:NATURAL, WP:COMMADIS, and WP:CONSISTENCY with Mary, mother of Jesus and Mary, mother of James. See Talk:Mary, mother of Jesus for full reasoning. Deus vult (aliquid)! Crusadestudent (talk) 16:13, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Jude, brother of Jesus is clearer and in line with Jude's other brothers: Joses, brother of Jesus, Simon, brother of Jesus, and hopefully soon James, brother of Jesus and also with Mary, mother of Jesus and others named by their relationship to a close relative (such as Joanna, wife of Chuza). Ulgarg (talk) 20:01, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support For consistency reasons. It should be in line with other articles. Dimadick (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per NATURAL and COMMADIS and CONSISTENCY, due to Mary, mother of Jesus. CookieMonster755 ^📞 ^✉ ^✓ 15:36, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.